world 5 world_fill Cities paper_plane 5 paper_plane_fill 5 Trips chat 42 chat_fill 42 Chat

Nomad    List  

Find your place  
Clear search
๐ŸŒ Join Nomads ๐Ÿ‘‹  Log in
General
Nomads.com Frontpage ๐ŸŒ—  Dark mode โค๏ธ  Your favorites ๐Ÿš‘  Nomad insurance
Community
โค๏ธ Dating app ๐Ÿค  Friend finder ๐Ÿ’ฌ  Chat ๐ŸŒŽ  Members map ๐Ÿ’ˆ  Host meetup
new
 ๐Ÿน  Attend meetup
Tools
๐Ÿœ  Explore ๐ŸŽ’  NomadGPT ๐Ÿ“ธ  Vote on photos ๐Ÿ—“  Residence calendar ๐Ÿ’ธ  FIRE calculator ๐ŸŒค  Climate finder ๐Ÿ’ฅ  Fastest growing ๐Ÿ“Š  Nomad stats
new
 ๐Ÿงช State of remote work new ๐Ÿ“œ  History of nomads
new
 ๐Ÿ•ธ  Network graph ๐Ÿ”Œ  Fastest internet ๐Ÿ†  Best place now ๐Ÿ”ฎ  Random place ๐Ÿ”ฎ  Random good place
Help
๐Ÿ’ก  Ideas + bugs ๐Ÿš€  Changelog ๐Ÿ›๏ธ  Merch ๐Ÿ›Ÿ  FAQ & Help ๐Ÿง‘โ€โš–๏ธ  TOS & Privacy policy
Other projects
๐Ÿฉ  Hotel List ๐Ÿ›ฐ  Remote jobs โœˆ๏ธ  Airline List ๐Ÿ—บ  Neighborhoods โœˆ๏ธ  fly.pieter.com ๐Ÿ  Coworkations โ˜•๏ธ  Nomad Cafe ๐Ÿก  Interior AI ๐Ÿ“ธ  Photo AI ๐Ÿ‡ช๐Ÿ‡บ  eu/acc ๐Ÿ“‘  JSON.pub
nomads.com/@jonallen

In , You've traveled 137,621km85,514mi, across 14 countries and 5 continents, or 7% of the world. You've been 3 times around the ๐ŸŒ Earth and 0.4 times to the ๐ŸŒ• Moon.

Year in Travels 2025
Fullscreen
2D
+ -
2006-06
2023-10

@jonallen

Message
Follow
Like as friend
๐ŸŽง Audiobook dork | ๐Ÿง‘๐Ÿปโ€๐ŸŽ“ Lifelong student | ๐Ÿ” Scenic junky |
๐Ÿ› Museums over clubs | ๐Ÿงฌ Spiral Dynamics Yellow ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ
31

trips

137,621

km

7%

of the world

14

countries

26

cities



  1 Oct '23 2mo 30 Nov '23 30 Nov '23
1 Oct '23

Edinburgh

12ยฐC 54ยฐF 		United Kingdom
 
 
  4 Apr '23 30d 4 May '23 4 May '23
4 Apr '23

Heidelberg

11ยฐC 52ยฐF 		Germany
2022
  21 Nov '22 6d 27 Nov '22 27 Nov '22
21 Nov '22

Corrour

United Kingdom
 
 
  14 Oct '22 2d 16 Oct '22 16 Oct '22
14 Oct '22

Isle of Arran

United Kingdom
  2 Oct '22 2mo 30 Nov '22 30 Nov '22
2 Oct '22

Edinburgh

12ยฐC 54ยฐF 		United Kingdom
 
 
  6 Sep '22 5d 11 Sep '22 11 Sep '22
6 Sep '22

Tyler, TX

29ยฐC 84ยฐF 		United States
 
 
  2 Aug '22 1mo 6 Sep '22 6 Sep '22
2 Aug '22

Franklin

United States
  20 Jul '22 13d 2 Aug '22 2 Aug '22
20 Jul '22

Seattle, WA

24ยฐC 74ยฐF 		United States
 
 
  26 Apr '22 7d 3 May '22 3 May '22
26 Apr '22

Curio Collection by Hilton

United States
 
 
  26 Jan '22 10d 5 Feb '22 5 Feb '22
26 Jan '22

Kansas City, MO

3ยฐC 37ยฐF 		United States
2021
  19 Oct '21 1mo 30 Nov '21 30 Nov '21
19 Oct '21

Edinburgh

12ยฐC 54ยฐF 		United Kingdom
 
 
  25 Sep '21 24d 19 Oct '21 19 Oct '21
25 Sep '21

Cambridge

17ยฐC 63ยฐF 		United Kingdom
  14 Sep '21 11d 25 Sep '21 25 Sep '21
14 Sep '21

Ruthin

United Kingdom
2019
  10 Nov '19 12d 22 Nov '19 22 Nov '19
10 Nov '19

Oundle

United Kingdom
  3 Nov '19 7d 10 Nov '19 10 Nov '19
3 Nov '19

Cambridge

7ยฐC 45ยฐF 		United Kingdom
 
 
  12 Jul '19 11d 23 Jul '19 23 Jul '19
12 Jul '19

Salt Lake City, UT

26ยฐC 79ยฐF 		United States
Expand all 31 trips




โœจ Recommended destinations they haven't been

This is an algorithmic recommendation based on @jonallen's trips history to find places they haven't been to yet that other people with similar travels also went and liked.

  • Thailand

    Bangkok

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜™ Affordable
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    mediocre
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒฆ  Feels  44°  111°   35°  96° ๐Ÿฅต AQI 71 ๐Ÿ˜ท
    0
    $1,547 / mo
    26 Mbps     ร—

  • Spain

    Barcelona

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜ณ Extremely expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    mediocre
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    โ˜€๏ธ  Feels  25°  77°   25°  77° AQI 59 ๐Ÿ˜ท
    0
    $5,063 / mo
    33 Mbps     ร—

  • Portugal

    Lisbon

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿง Pricey
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    bad
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    โ˜€๏ธ  Feels  22°  72°   22°  71° AQI 21
    0
    $3,939 / mo
    27 Mbps     ร—

  • Japan

    Tokyo

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿง Pricey
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    good
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  great
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒค  Feels  28°  82°   27°  80° AQI 53 ๐Ÿ˜ท
    0
    $3,230 / mo
    28 Mbps     ร—

  • Thailand

    Chiang Mai

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜™ Affordable
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    good
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒง  Feels  42°  108°   32°  90° ๐Ÿฅต AQI 56 ๐Ÿ˜ท
    0
    $1,088 / mo
    21 Mbps     ร—

  • United Kingdom

    London

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜ณ Extremely expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    mediocre
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒฆ  Feels  18°  64°   18°  64° AQI 46
    0
    $5,958 / mo
    22 Mbps     ร—

  • Hungary

    Budapest

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ™‚ Okay
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    good
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒฆ  Feels  28°  82°   28°  83° AQI 70 ๐Ÿ˜ท
    0
    $2,619 / mo
    37 Mbps     ร—

  • Germany

    Berlin

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿง Very expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    mediocre
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒฆ  Feels  21°  70°   20°  69° AQI 34
    0
    $4,456 / mo
    27 Mbps     ร—

    • โค๏ธ Favorites

  • Germany

    Heidelberg

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿง Pricey
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    great
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒฆ  Feels  19°  66°   19°  66°
    0
    $3,709 / mo
    27 Mbps     ร—

  • United Kingdom

    Edinburgh

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜ณ Extremely expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    good
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒฆ  Feels  13°  55°   14°  58°
    1
    $6,313 / mo
    23 Mbps     ร—

    • ๐ŸŒŽ Regions collected (5 of 8)

    ๐Ÿšฉ Flags collected (14 of 275)

    ๐ŸŒ Top countries

  • United Kingdom

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿง Very expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    great
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒฆ  Feels  14°  57°   15°  58°
    9mo
    $4,770 / mo
    23 Mbps     ร—

  • United States

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿง Very expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    great
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  mediocre
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒฅ  Feels  27°  81°   26°  78°
    3mo
    $4,019 / mo
    47 Mbps     ร—

  • Germany

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿง Pricey
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    good
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒง  Feels  19°  66°   19°  66°
    30d
    $3,755 / mo
    27 Mbps     ร—

  • France

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿง Very expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    great
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  mediocre
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒฆ  Feels  22°  72°   22°  71° AQI 9
    18d
    $4,017 / mo
    28 Mbps     ร—

  • Philippines

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜™ Affordable
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐Ÿ™‚ Good
    bad
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  mediocre
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒง  Feels  33°  91°   28°  82°
    13d
    $1,616 / mo
    8 Mbps     ร—

  • Italy

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿง Very expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    good
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    โ˜€๏ธ  Feels  25°  77°   25°  76°
    12d
    $4,353 / mo
    17 Mbps     ร—

  • Rwanda

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜ณ Extremely expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐Ÿ˜ก Slow
    mediocre
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  mediocre
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒง  Feels  19°  66°   19°  66°
    9d
    $240,183 / mo
    5 Mbps     ร—

  • Mexico

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜™ Affordable
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    mediocre
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  bad
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒฆ  Feels  31°  87°   29°  83°
    8d
    $2,107 / mo
    12 Mbps     ร—

    • ๐Ÿ›ฌ Most visits

  • United Kingdom

    Edinburgh

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜ณ Extremely expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    good
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒฆ  Feels  13°  55°   14°  58°
    3x
    $6,313 / mo
    23 Mbps     ร—

  • Philippines

    Manila

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜™ Affordable
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐Ÿ™‚ Good
    bad
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  mediocre
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒง  Feels  41°  106°   32°  89° ๐Ÿฅต
    2x
    $1,539 / mo
    7 Mbps     ร—

  • United Kingdom

    Cambridge

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜ณ Extremely expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    mediocre
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒฆ  Feels  17°  63°   17°  62°
    2x
    $5,270 / mo
    23 Mbps     ร—

  • France

    Paris

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜ณ Extremely expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    good
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  mediocre
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒง  Feels  19°  66°   19°  67° AQI 48
    1x
    $5,920 / mo
    28 Mbps     ร—

  • Japan

    Fukuoka

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿง Pricey
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    great
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  great
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒฅ  Feels  27°  81°   26°  78° AQI 61 ๐Ÿ˜ท
    1x
    $3,092 / mo
    28 Mbps     ร—

  • South Africa

    Cape Town

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜™ Affordable
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐Ÿ™‚ Good
    good
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  very bad
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒฆ  Feels  16°  61°   16°  61° AQI 59 ๐Ÿ˜ท
    1x
    $2,331 / mo
    9 Mbps     ร—

  • Rwanda

    Kigali

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜ณ Extremely expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐Ÿ˜ก Slow
    mediocre
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  mediocre
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒง  Feels  19°  66°   19°  67°
    1x
    $240,183 / mo
    5 Mbps     ร—

  • Italy

    Rome

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜ณ Extremely expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    mediocre
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    โ˜€๏ธ  Feels  27°  81°   26°  79°
    1x
    $5,564 / mo
    17 Mbps     ร—

    • ๐Ÿ›Œ Most time spent

  • United Kingdom

    Edinburgh

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜ณ Extremely expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    good
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒฆ  Feels  13°  55°   14°  58°
    5mo
    $6,313 / mo
    23 Mbps     ร—

  • United Kingdom

    Cambridge

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜ณ Extremely expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    mediocre
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒฆ  Feels  17°  63°   17°  62°
    1mo
    $5,270 / mo
    23 Mbps     ร—

  • Germany

    Heidelberg

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿง Pricey
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    great
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒฆ  Feels  19°  66°   19°  66°
    30d
    $3,709 / mo
    27 Mbps     ร—

  • France

    Paris

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜ณ Extremely expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    good
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  mediocre
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒง  Feels  19°  66°   19°  67° AQI 48
    18d
    $5,920 / mo
    28 Mbps     ร—

  • Philippines

    Manila

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜™ Affordable
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐Ÿ™‚ Good
    bad
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  mediocre
    Tap to open
    ๐ŸŒง  Feels  41°  106°   32°  89° ๐Ÿฅต
    13d
    $1,539 / mo
    7 Mbps     ร—

  • United States

    Seattle

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜ณ Extremely expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐Ÿš€ Super fast
    great
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  mediocre
    Tap to open
    โ˜€๏ธ  Feels  22°  72°   22°  71°
    13d
    $6,566 / mo
    91 Mbps     ร—

  • Italy

    Rome

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿ˜ณ Extremely expensive
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐ŸŽ Fast
    mediocre
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  good
    Tap to open
    โ˜€๏ธ  Feels  27°  81°   26°  79°
    12d
    $5,564 / mo
    17 Mbps     ร—

  • United States

    Salt Lake City

    โญ๏ธ OverallAll 
    ๐Ÿ’ต Cost  ๐Ÿง Pricey
    ๐Ÿ“ก InternetWiFi  ๐Ÿš€ Super fast
    mediocre
    ๐Ÿ‘ฎ Safety  mediocre
    Tap to open
    โ˜€๏ธ  Feels  24°  75°   24°  75°
    11d
    $3,664 / mo
    70 Mbps     ร—

    • ๐Ÿ•บ People they cross paths with most

    Expand all 142 people

    ๐Ÿ˜š Followers

    โ€น โ€บ
    ×
    USD โ”€ $
    ยฐC
    Nomad cost

    Can't login? See the FAQ

    ×
    Customer rating 9.0 | 7,605 reviews
    Join Nomads.com
    โœ… Attend Nomads.com meetups in cities all over the world and make friends (7 meetups per week, 338 meetups per year with 50,964 people attending already)
    โœ… Get access to the paid Nomads.com Chat on Telegram and find your community on the road (15,000+ messages sent this month)
    โœ… Meet new and interesting people for dating or friends and get matched based on your interests and the places you're visiting
    โœ… Get unlimited members-only access to cities in 195+ countries and research the best places to live, travel and work remotely to find yours
    โœ… Keep track of your travels to record where you've been, where you're going and meet people there
    โœ… Unlock hundreds of filters to pick destinations on exactly your preferences and find your perfect place to live and travel
    โœ… Join a global community of remote workers living and traveling around the world
    โœ… Learn how to get visas & residence permits from other people who been through the process
    โœ… Get alerts when you're approaching the 183 days when you become a legal/tax resident in a country with the residence calendar
    โœ… Use the Climate Finder to search cities based on future weather and air quality
    โœ… Use the FIRE retirement tool to find places to retire early
    โœ… Awarded Best Remote Work Tool and Best Travel App
    โœ… Be the first to receive new remote jobs on our Nomads.com Chat
    โœ… Get access to Airline List™ Pro to filter airlines with data on best safety, service and live lost luggage data and improve your flying comfort

    By signing up, you agree to our terms of service and community guidelines.



    Explore the world
    Lite Membership
    Full Membership

    One-time-payment: $39.98 $19.99 ๐Ÿ’ซ 0% off

    Billed once. Then never again

    37,596 members + 163 people joined this month
    @gigigriffis: "Just a quick fun note to let you know that you have another Nomads.com romance success story. I met my current boyfriend at a meetup I set up through you guys."
    @josh_works: "My wife and I are in Buenos Aires right now. Starting this whole nomad thing felt 100x easier once I joined Nomads.com and saw other people just... doing it."
    @melissawashin: "I gave my two weeks notice last week, and I'm flying to Portugal in two weeks. It's important to say (for the ninth time) that joining Nomads.com was the best decision I made to best inform and prepare myself for this decision. So thank you a million times over!"
    @zackyoung: "You're going to be lonely sometimes and that's okay. One way I combat this is by being a part of Nomads.com and meet up with other remote workers."

    Nomads.com members
    work remotely at

    ๐Ÿ‘‹ Welcome to Nomads.com!
    Username*
    Your username is used across the site, for example in your profile URL: https://nomads.com/@username. You can change it later.
    Birth date*
    We use your birth date to better match you with other nomads and personalize destination recommendations to you. As well as measure the changing demographics of nomads.
    About you
    Let people know things you like to do, where you're from, where you work, where you'd like to visit, what's your favorite food etc.!
    Profile photo
    Upload an image
    Please set a real color profile photo of just your face.
    Save your profile
    Welcome to Nomads.com

    ๐Ÿ’– Thanks for signing up! I hope you like my site. I put a lot of effort into making it for years!

    ๐Ÿ“ฌ First, please go to your email and click the confirm link first to verify your email address

    โ›”๏ธ Check your spam folder if you can't find it, because we got reports it ends up there sometimes

    ๐Ÿ’Œ After you confirm your email we'll send you an email with more info

    ๐Ÿ‘ฉโ€๐Ÿ’ป You can start using Nomads.com's member-only features now!

    Let's go
    โœจ To see all results
    Join Nomads
    by @levelsio
    ๐ŸŒ Join a community of remote workers living around the world
    ×
    489ms
    Send
    Sent!
    Sorry, this is taking a while...